Tu e Lei

[rinue]

I think I'm finally getting the hang of Italian formal-versus-friendly address. It took me a while, because it's not really similar to French, where all you do for formality is flip to the plural you (analogous to thee versus you before English dropped that whole thing).

In Italian, when you're talking to someone respectfully, you use Lei, which is "she" except capitalized (obviously you can't hear the capital letter). Essentially, you are addressing them as "Milady" regardless of gender. ("Milady may do as Milady wishes" instead of "you can do what you want.") I've been around it enough now that it's normal, but when I first came over, it was confusing when a waiter would address my dad as Lei. What was going on? Were they asking him to answer for me? (No.)

That's not the hard bit, though. The hard bit is that when you're telling someone to do something, using third person singular (the Lei one) seems to mean maybe you're pissed off, or at the very least you feel you have a right to boss them around. Using second person singular, on the other hand, is polite. This is the reverse of what you're doing the entire rest of the time, where you talk to your buddies using "you" and maintain a formal distance with "Milady."

As far as I can tell, it's because when I'm telling you to do something, if we're not close, I need to be clear that I'm asking "as a friend" and it's totally your discretion. Scusi, excuse me my friend I bumped into on the sidewalk, friendly friendly, of course it's up to you whether you mind or not, but since we are both friends even though we're total strangers probably it's fine. There's a "please" implied, I guess.

Whereas if I'm your spouse or parent or something, fkin do the thing. Lady clean your room I am not telling you again.

That's how it seems to me, anyway. I may still be getting it wrong.

Comments

[movingfinger]

Your description of the nuance here is helpful in other languages too, Spanish for example, I'd guess.

It also hints at ways that subtle pressure can be brought to bear on someone---asking for someone as a "tu" in a more formal setting, for example, implies that they're one of the gang, includes them in. Going to formal language, as you observe, puts distance into the relationship. A nice barometer, and one easily manipulated if one should be so inclined.

[pengolodh_sc]

Thou and thee are both friendly address. The formal address in English is You.

[rinue]

You're right of course. Thus it is always when writing while distracted. Corrected in the entry. Thanks. :)

[rinue]

If I remember right, English lost "thee" as an annoyed backlash to people trying to make thee the one you used for everybody? ("Well if that's how it is, I'm using only you.") Reminds me a bit of the recent renewed ascendancy of "they" as a gender-neutral singular as a counter-reaction to the hard-selling of "he or she".

[cremains]

I get that it's rarely possible to answer this question neatly for languages, but -- do you have a sense as to why the feminine form is used exclusively? I mean, I love it.

[rinue]

No clue! There is the same "ladies first" attitude here that exists back in the States, so it might have to do with gallantry, or respecting your mother, or something. But that's just a wild guess that's almost certainly wrong. Notably, Lei the formal address is capitalized, whereas lei meaning "she" isn't (unless it's at the start of a sentence). Lei is certainly an interesting counterpart to "mankind" or "any man" for a universal address.

I have heard tell that "voi" (plural you) used to be the formal term, and it only shifted to Lei a few generations back, but I might have misunderstood the timeline on that. (I'm not entirely sure how to interpret "recently" in a region where I regularly encounter pre-Roman artifacts.) I have run into people still using the voi form of formality in a very old very small town in the south.

[valancy_jane]

Spanish is similar. I still remember learning commands and then the teacher admitting after we'd done all the work "well, really, commands in that form are kind of rude, so you'd normally use the regular Ud. form anyway, which is the tu command." The class nearly rioted.